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Stainless Steel and Glass Dual Walled Cells

Keep up to date with developments relating to the Celani inspired Stainless Steel and Glass Dual walled cells developed with support from donations and team resources.

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Steel & Glass Cells readying for new RUN [UPDATE#1 - Repair done, getting ready to fire up]

on .

So I bet some of you have been wondering just what happened to the S&G cells over the past few weeks. Well, just after the last apparently successful run and before the data publishing was able to be live again, the active cell was loaded with not 1, but 2, 400L class Celani wires and test loaded with Hydrogen. We got 25% loading on the first attempt which is awesome. What was not so good was that there seemed to be some serious failures in contacts and wiring and the cells have laid dormant whilst awaiting repair.

The good news is that Nicolas has put aside the time to give them a little TLC, actually, they have been in intensive surgery lately.

The failure mode was the same on both cells:

- water got into the copper - electric wire connections and these got corroded (outside the cell)
- mechanical stress on the electric wire caused them to fail

So whilst it might be simpler to understand these experiments over the other ones we are doing, the whole immersing them in water brings its own complications! 

So Nicolas had to:-

  1. Replace one of the passthroughs, that accounted for 4 electrical connections, on each cell.
  2. Perform complex surgery to remove the 353ND epoxy and replace the ceramic passthrough.
  3. Re-build the electric wire connections which are now reinforced with Belzona 1111 (super solid stuff).

This has now been fixed for both cells. With these corrections and modifications, it is expected that the issues encountered will not cause problems again.

The hard part will be to remount every thing on the active cell without damaging the valuable Celani's wires which still have a high loading. Currently, the wires are still mounted on the 3 mica parts, but this subassembly is presently dismounted from the cell.

Nicolas says he is waiting for a roll of Block constantan (0.2mm) that he has been using to seal the glass fiber sheath on the copper wires (inside the cells). Without this, it will be to risk for the active wires.

He hopes to finish reassembling everything this Thursday.

Then we'll restart test, with LIVE data, potentially as soon as this weekend.

In the meantime, if anyone has any protocol suggestions or practical points for us to ensure we incorporated, we would really appreciate if someone could sift though the discussions of the last run and pick out the gems of ideas that were put forward.

We are likely to set the cells up in a way that allows them to readily reach a steady state rather than over insulate them and we have some good previous data to go on that will enable us to hopefully start at a point that is closer to steady state, however there is potentially more and better active material in these cells than before, so it could be an exciting run.

Oh, and we'll have an ambient sensor.

UPDATE#1 - Repair done, getting ready to fire up

Nicolas managed to repair the feed-thoughs on both the cells, without damaging the highly loaded 2 400L class Celani wires in the active cell. The electrical wire connections are now reinforced and should not exhibit the same failure mode when immersed into water.

He is reconnecting both cells to the HugNetLab boards. And plans to restart testing from this Friday afternoon.

He says that he is not certain that the cells will sustain vacuum correctly, I guess we will see.

The Teflon gasket seat on both cells might need to be reworked too. But this should be easy to do if it is needed. See a few shots from the re-build.

The S&G following a very successful loading of 2 X 400L Celani wires in the active cell was found to have a major failure point. This has now been repaired and reinforced and we think it is about time they get fired up for a live run!

Taking learning from the previous run, we have a better idea of where the start point in terms of Pin for the active and control should be and there will be logging of ambient!

Otherwise, pretty much the same BUT - the Active and Control will switch positions!


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0 #21 Richard Pollack 2013-07-27 11:53
Just for fun, why not make the cell "nickel and glass"?

Also, consider that the glass may be an active agent.
0 #20 Sanjeev 2013-07-25 21:14
This patented design of a lenr reactor utilizes a deliberate flow of hydrogen to achieve better heat generation.


This patent is granted, which is a miracle in itself.
0 #19 Ecco 2013-07-25 16:44
@MFMP: during ICCF18 it has become apparent that an active hydrogen flux on the active material is very important for the excess heat to show in both gas loaded and electrolysis experiments.

Let's also assume that the S&G cells are indeed producing some excess heat as initially observed. If these premises are true, the vertical orientation used so far for them might have actually helped achieving it. This orientation should promote a "natural" convection path for the hydrogen contained inside the glass tube which would keep it continuously moving ie forming an active flux.

This is something worth thinking about. Just keeping the cells in a vertical orientation without changing anything else in their setup is going to make their top end hotter than their bottom end, forming the temperature gradient needed for this flux to show.

I speculate that under this these conditions in the S&G cells the small excess heat observed is promoted at a low level, by the catalytic dissociation of H2 into H- on the surface of active wire. Now, if we were to actively do that through high voltage sparking as per DGT process, what would happen?
0 #18 Ecco 2013-07-12 19:17
Sorry, I was referring to the entire HUGNetLab live data facility. Some sort of temporary problem was preventing live data for all experiments to be streamed, and therefore potentially for this experiment too, which was expected to start today.
0 #17 Robert Greenyer 2013-07-12 19:08

Might not happen till monday... getting the ambient patched into the board and a new test on the Data feeds.
0 #16 Ecco 2013-07-12 11:47
Live data is not getting streamed to the public right now.
0 #15 Robert Greenyer 2013-07-10 14:14

So it looks like these will be going for a new run.

- Ambient will be recorded
- The data will be live
- there will be a switch after a period of time

Mostly the same protocol - targeting same stirred volume of water to same temp.

Blog update to come.
0 #14 Bruce Ikelheimer 2013-07-09 14:28
My one comment would be to ensure there is at least some insulation between the buckets to avoid any cross-bucket heat transfer. Something simple like a chunk of foam should be fine.
0 #13 AlexRa 2013-07-03 07:36
Again about wire preparation: Edwin A. Pell claims self-sustaining heat in ISOTAN wire, includes detailed description of the experiment:


(the page itself is in Italian, but the interesting part in English)
0 #12 Paul 2013-07-03 02:10
I think that's my point. You can achieve equilibrium in two ways: 1) by injecting unequal power into equal heat collectors and letting Px make up the difference, or 2) inject equal power into unequal collectors and let Px make up the difference. To my mind, it's easier to measure temperature differentials than vary power input while measuring temperature differentials.
0 #11 bob 2013-07-03 00:22
@paul It is is important to recognize that the water in this experiment is acting as a thermal collector and not as a heat sink. The room is the heat sink. This experiment is credible precisely because the control and the active cell have the same geometry and thermal collector volume. This equivalence is maintained for long duration runs to prove that the excess heat measured is outside the realm of a chemical reaction.
0 #10 Paul 2013-07-02 23:14
Perhaps it would be simpler to match temperatures by adding water to the active cell while supplying equal power to both. If you expect 10% excess power, then add 10% more water to the active cell and if T1=T2, you have your answer.
0 #9 Sanjeev 2013-07-02 21:48
Great news. The last experiment was really promising. Two wires sounds good. I don't think making the setup more complex is a good thing, simpler the better.

So placing both the buckets in clear space (middle of the room) and swapping the active cell with passive a few times, are good enough. Since this is a direct comparison, we need not worry about evaporation etc, because both buckets are going to evaporate at the same rate. Same for the flange, it will lose heat at same rate in both.

The idea of using an ordinary heater is a good one (by Bob), the way you can do it is after the experiment is over. Simply use one of the bucket and same sensors and instruments for added confidence. You can even use the same steel tube, if you wish to disassemble it.

You can also repeat the experiment with old wires (active and passive both old) after the runs. This will confirm the last results.
0 #8 bob 2013-07-02 20:34
We could simultest the concept of a radial conduction calorimeter by taping (foil or metal tape best) some thermcouples to exterior wall of the buckets. We know that heat flux is proportional to delta T across a conductive path (in this case the bucket wall). To force all heat flux out radially, the top and bottom of the buckets should be insulated (styrofoam). If done correctly we should find a cleaner corelation between this delta T and the heat flux (as measured by the input power to the control cell at steady state). If this radial conduction calorimetry proves worthy, we can greatly simplify this apparatus going forward.
0 #7 Robert Greenyer 2013-07-02 19:41
@Edwin Pell

I loved that idea at the time it was posted along with the fascinating videos, but as I noted at the time, we are vigorously agitating/stirr ing the water in these cells and so I fear any oil would become an emulsion or suspension in the water and be ineffective. I did suggest maybe making the whole fluid an oil - but this would require something with low viscosity and complicate replication.

Given that the surface area and volume/spacial arrangement is the same and we are targeting the same temp and the high heat capacity of water, I think it is not so bad.

One potentially good solution to reduce evaporation would be to have a humidifier in the room maybe. This might raise room temp a little but could reduce evaporation rate... that reminds me - we should have a humidity sensor, anyone suggest one that can be hooked up in 4 days - I think you can buy those ones that can be attached to the web from electronic shops. suggestions please.
+1 #6 Edwin Pell 2013-07-02 19:20
I'm easy. I like it the way it is. The only thing I would like to add is a layer of oil on top of the water to slow evaporation. Thin layer, olive oil is fine or car motor oil.
+1 #5 Robert Greenyer 2013-07-02 17:36

I am not sure we have the instrumentation for that - but then again, it should just be V, I and temperature of water, but we would need another stirrer with PSU and another PSU for the joule heater.

We are going to launch a new donations section on the site asking for loan or donation of old, unused or surplus lab equipment to support us and any other replication teams that want to join the project as we are sure there are lab or companies with under utilised equipment in their possession. In fact, we can't understand why we did not think of this sooner.

I am afraid what you suggest is a good idea but might not be doable. I will put it to the team.


I hear what you say, however, if we can show repeatable results with this kind of cell in simple set ups, including swapping the cells over, then we can look to be more rigorous in testing them.

These cells are easy to understand - deal with the nonsense discussions surrounding IR, Conduction and convection of gasses, ensure no reactive gasses can get into the core as well as the very much more challenging Languimir effect and also deal with ambient issues. Taking a chunk of high heat capacity water to the same temp with different input between active and control cells in same environment is compelling.

In this experiment we are using potentially better wires, but they are different, the last "less good" ones seamed to work anyway and in hindsight it might have been better to stick with them and cycled them. We are where we are, so let's see what happens.

Granted the signal is not so dynamic, but if we are producing the equivalent of several watts for many days, even weeks, that cumulatively is substantial.
0 #4 Ecco 2013-07-02 15:45
An idea for a future run (I imagine you would have time modifying the cell only after ICCF18). Make it a dual walled, externally heated, insulated steel tube. In this way you can achieve much higher internal temperatures, higher pressures and maybe self-sustainmen t too.

+1 #3 Ecco 2013-07-02 14:56
The most obvious and least expensive alternative would be measuring the surface temperature of these cells like with standard glass Celani cells.

The main advantage with the S&G setup would be eliminating all problems about glass tube IR transparency (but be sure to also measure flange temperature).

Since the active cell has already been "activated" there would probably be problems with calibrations, though.
+1 #2 Ecco 2013-07-02 14:52
Do these cells just have to be submerged in open water buckets? That really complicates things too much. Nobody is ever going to reach an agreement on the results as long as the expected excess heat will be in the 5-10% range. People will say that it's within the error margin for such a crude experiment.

My opinion is that you should either:

- use more standard calorimetry. The CTC cell of the US team is a good compromise, their upcoming water flow calorimetry looks almost ideal;

- insulate the cells as much as possible to make them self-sustain, although the glass tube setup might prevent this. Once the cell appears to produce heat without input energy (or with unreasonably little input energy), all discussions about calorimetry won't make much sense anymore;

- increase the SNR, making the xs heat effect power significantly more prominent, although limited active wire availability might prevent this from happening.

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