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SRI International in Menlo Park, California to host colloquium on LENR [UPDATE#2 - Sveinn Ólafsson presentation slides]

Written by Robert Greenyer on .

Sveinn Ólafsson of the Science Institute, Physics Department, University of Iceland and Alan Goldwater representing the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project will hold a joint event courtesy of Fran Tanzella at SRI International.

If you wish to attend, please see linked pdf for details.


UPDATE#1 - Review, attendance and slides

Jones Beene reports on the colloquium at SRI


Alan Goldwater said

"It went well today. The guest list included:

Michael McKubre
Fran Tanzella
Mark Davidson
Robert Godes & staff
Jones Beene
Robert Ellefson
Brad Lowe

and about 25 others."

Alan's presentation slides


and Speaker notes


UPDATE#2 - Sveinn Ólafsson presentation slides


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0 #18 EccoEcco 2015-11-08 08:25
Probably sort of off-topic here, but does anybody have any idea whether the pressure wave from electrical discharges caused by a standard spark plug would be able to displace low pressure hydrogen in an small enclosed cavity (eg a tube) in any relevant way?
0 #17 Robert Greenyer 2015-10-29 18:06

Thanks for the analysis.
0 #16 EccoEcco 2015-10-28 09:54
This makes me also wonder if:

- Celani got the idea of using CuNi wires from Rossi's old patent.

- Rossi used in some cases copper tubes on purpose so that he could employ CuNi based catalysts for hydrogen dissociation while claiming (in his blog, interviews, patent documentation, but NOT in patent claims) it was contamination (potentially, same for stainless steel tubes) or the result of nuclear reactions.

- Nickel powder hasn't actually been a smokescreen all along. The point seems to be having hydrogen continuously dissociating and recombining from catalysts in a hydrogen-satura ted environment with the action of pressure pulses and varying temperatures (but not so high that catalysts are destroyed).
0 #15 EccoEcco 2015-10-28 07:48
@Robert Greenyer: speaking of old patents and catalysts, I'm wondering if EDX analyses in Rossi's first patents aren't actually of one of many different kinds of catalyst particles rather than the result of nuclear reactions:


With Ni and Zn this makes me think of Urushibara Nickel, which is primarily a Ni-Zn alternative to Raney Nickel, the famous Ni-Al catalyst used in many industrial processes.


First nickel is precipitated in metallic form by reacting a solution of a nickel salt with zinc. (...) After the digestion with acid most of the zinc and zinc oxide is dissolved from the catalyst, while after digestion with base it still contains considerable amounts of zinc and zinc oxide

Both U-Ni-A and U-Ni-B are produced from the same precipitated nickel that is deposited by the reaction between nickel salt solution and zinc dust.

I also tried sorting many of the translated claims of Rossi's italian patent into something more coherent and readable. They do seem to describe a general process rather than a "recipe":

- The powder, grains or bars residing in a hydrogen-satura ted environment contain catalysts and are composed of any isotope of Ni, Cu and/or other metals (claims 1, 2, 6, 12, 13)

- Hydrogen is injected in pulses at a pressure preferably between 2 and 20 bar, rather than kept at constant pressure (claims 1, 4, 7)

- Temperature is varied within preferably 150 and 500°C rather than maintained constant (claims 3, 8.)

- Different kinds of exothermic reactions can occur and different atoms can be created in the process depending on the amount of protons interacting with the powder, grains or bars (claim 15)
0 #14 Robert Greenyer 2015-10-27 23:14

Yes - I was reading through just these points earlier today.
0 #13 EccoEcco 2015-10-27 22:57
I previously observed (for example, on LENR-Forum) how Rossi's 2009 TOF-SIMS analyses posted on New Energy Times didn't seem to contain Nickel at all. Perhaps this is not too weird if we think of Leif Holmlid's experiments. However there's more to this: according to some of the original claims in Rossi's early E-Cat patents, Nickel isn't actually required.

Have a look at this translation of the claims of Rossi's italian 2008 patent, again posted on New Energy Times:
newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/docs/Rossi-ECat-Italian-Patent App-Claims-English.pdf


12. Apparatus according to one or more of the previous claims, characterized by the fact that the nickel utilized for the nuclear reaction can be of any isotope

13. Apparatus according to one or more of the previous claims, characterized by the fact that the nickel utilized for the nuclear reaction can be substituted with other elements, in particular copper.
His 2009 world patent application also stated something similar, before many claims were amended later on:


12. An apparatus according to claim 5, characterized in that said nickel powder is a nickel isotope powder.

13. An apparatus according to claim 5, characterized in that said nickel powder is replaceable by a copper powder.
The international patent is less general here, but it seems clear that Nickel was not originally thought to be necessary.
This would be consistent with the analyses I was referring, here: newenergytimes.com/.../...

0 #12 EccoEcco 2015-10-27 15:15
@Robert Greenyer: to be frank right now I have no idea of what else he might be possibly creating in-situ, so I'm looking forward to reading that.

I'd like to add that the small but sizable amounts of V and Mo in the Lugano ash particles (from the digitized TOF-SIMS analysis, which hopefully I've correctly decoded) might be giveaways that some sort of dehydrogenation catalyst was indeed used. Oxides of these metals tend to come up often in the dehydrogenation catalyst patents I've seen so far. Notably, V2O5 (vanadium pentoxide) is used in this dehydrogenation catalyst patent by the Shell Oil company: www.freepatentsonline.com/.../ (scroll down to Table I). The version without vanadium is called "Shell 105" (EDIT: corrected; I've previously written the opposite).

In the end I don't think the exact composition matters here as long as the catalyst does its job. However, it could be that several different alkali promoted, iron oxide dehydrogenation catalysts have been used in Rossi experiments, perhaps even at the same time.

As a side note, the one described in example 22 here:

Might be similar in composition to the HTED-04 one planned to be used in upcoming MFMP experiments.

The Composition of the Catalyst according to our invention comprises: iron oxide, potassium oxide, calcium and magnesium, cerium oxide, other promoters and stabilizers, but no molybdenum and chromium oxide.
0 #11 Robert Greenyer 2015-10-27 14:51

Yes, this was my thinking. Moreover, I think he is doing more in situ - something I will expand upon and the earliest opportunity.
0 #10 EccoEcco 2015-10-27 08:16
@Robert Greenyer: a thought. All patents and written information published so far by Rossi have always omitted that it's quite likely he's used a typical iron oxide dehydrogenation catalyst all along for (at the very least) efficiently dissociating molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen.

However, the chemical composition of these catalysts can look like that of stainless steel (with Fe, Cr, Mn content).

I'm wondering if those who somehow managed to replicate the experiment (assuming no errors or something worse) serendipitously created such catalyst in-situ by using a stainless steel fuel container modified with heat, stress, embrittlement and contaminants from the initial atmosphere and possibly enhanced with Li from the LiAlH4.

If this is the case, then when Rossi patents mention stainless steel containers being used for the reaction chamber (like AISI 304, 310, and 316 as in Industrial Heat patents) this might be actually needed, in a way, for including the "secret catalyst" without letting others know.


Since Rossi obviously knows what the "secret" catalyst is - assuming it's actually the one I'm referring about - he wouldn't need in practice to create it in-situ from stainless steel, as he could simply include it in the fuel. The catalyst could then pass as SS contamination in the ash analysis.
0 #9 EccoEcco 2015-10-26 20:15
From Mark Jurich via Jones Beene on Vortex-l, an archive of several (30) papers on Rydberg Matter and Ultra-dense hydrogen by Leif Holmlid and colleagues: tempid.altervista.org/.../

I guess it will be useful to cache/back up this too on a different server.

Source: goo.gl/gbIRF2 (vortex-l), couldn't paste the full URL directly due to the @ symbol.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Jurich

Holmlid Archive (~27 MB):

I cannot download this file - for whatever reason, probably a security issue
with Firefox.

If anyone on vortex can download it and post it to where Firefox will not
complain - it will be greatly appreciate. Could be an important file.
+1 #8 EccoEcco 2015-10-26 08:04
@Robert Greenyer: very good to know, although it might still not be enough. Besides proper catalyst preparation, a method for achieving a continuous hydrogen flux, and one for triggering are still missing. For the former I suggested some kind of thermoacoustic resonant system, but Axil axil seems to be implying that the Lugano tube could have worked like a sort of heat pipe. Food for thought. See here on the subject:


A reversible hydride should work too, but I don't think it was used in Lugano, judging by temperatures (even assuming they were 30% lower than reported) and their behavior from plot 5 (page 23).

* * *

Again on the Lugano powder analyses, and again interestingly, the two ash particles analyzed with TOF-SIMS were apparently rich in alkali metals, especially Na and K. I've recently learned that alkali metal oxides too have a low vapor pressure and therefore that it is possible that after long term heating at high temperature the potassium content in the fuel could have deposited on the internal reactor walls. Hopefully more skilled people than I am will check out for themselves and confirm the data.


Furthermore, in the 2013 Edström fuel analysis there are large particles in the ash which seem consistent with some sort of styrene catalyst being used (possibly Fe2O3, Cr2O3, C), but with very little to no alkali content (K or Na). I suggested that if I were Rossi and wanted to obfuscate things up a bit for third party analysis, I might have heated the ash in a hard vacuum in order to make most alkali content evaporate.

Edström fuel analysis

High temperature vaporization behavior of oxides. I. Alkali metal binary oxides
+1 #7 Robert Greenyer 2015-10-26 07:47

Thanks for the analysis.

We are going to exactly put a ground Fischer-Tropsch catalyst into our up-coming experiments.
+1 #6 EccoEcco 2015-10-25 12:53
@Robert Greenyer: (following up your suggestion on E-Cat World that a catalyst similar to those used by Holmlid could have possibly been synthesized in-situ in the Lugano reactor)

The "iron-rich" fuel particle in the Rossi/Lugano report on page 51 is interesting. It looks like its composition from the TOF-SIMS analysis is similar to that of a typical potassium/iron- oxide catalyst.


I tried digitizing the graph using the same technique I used for a different one in the past weeks. Perhaps others can come up with a better interpretation, but for the most part it should be something along these lines. Ni-Li (and perhaps other minor elements with the exception of C) were probably contamination from the rest of the powder:


More interestingly, particle 3 (d) from EDS analysis on page 44, with Fe, O, Si, Cr, Mn, and some C (in decreasing order of abundance) also seems quite consistent with some sort of typical dehydrogenation catalyst being used. Potassium is missing here, but it's abundant in the TOF-SIMS analysis of the iron-rich particle (together with sodium, which also was in Rossi's 2009 fuel analyses posted on New Energy Times). So, assuming it's the same particle type, I would guess that there was some sort of ground Fischer-Tropsch /styrene/dehydr ogenation catalyst in the initial powder.

+1 #5 Robert Greenyer 2015-10-25 10:42

Have backed up and re-posted slides
+1 #4 EccoEcco 2015-10-24 08:55
@MFMP/AlanG: could this information from Jones Beene's report be confirmed by others (Ólafsson, etc)?

(...) Holmlid recently told him that the dense hydrogen takes several weeks to accumulate (...)
I was already aware that excessive potassium concentration in the catalyst (as well as improper preparation and activation) can hamper ultra-dense hydrogen production, but I don't remember reading in any of Holmlid's papers that it takes weeks to accumulate. If anything, it always read like this process, as long as the catalyst is in proper conditions and the starting vacuum is good, could take place immediately.

On the other hand, if an active flux of hydrogen through the catalyst in order to cause atomic hydrogen desorption from its surface (and H(0) to form) is needed, just having the gas statically sitting there with it is probably not going to accomplish much (hence, weeks of time for any effect to potentially show?).
+1 #3 EccoEcco 2015-10-24 04:41
@Robert Greenyer: from Mark Jurich on Vortex-l:

Here are the slides for Sveinn’s presentation, courtesy of Sveinn:


Bob Greenyer or some one: Please create a mirror and provide the link (via QuantumHeat.Org), as some may not be able to DownLoad from this site, easily.

Mark Jurich
@JustaGuy: thanks, I'm looking forward to know if a public release of that video is planned.

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