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Review of First 11 hours

Written by Ryan Hunt on .

Discussion and findings on success since Saturday 10/11/12

We had what appeared to be a very successful loading, with strong and compelling evidence provided by the change to a lower resistivity of the wire over the course of the loading cycle.  There is the possibility that we may be able to load even more hydrogen into the wire in further experiments over a long period of time.

Additionally it has been found that during the course of the active experiment there was also a period of apparent loading as can be seen in this graph.



As you can see - initially the resistance increased, but at a certain point, there was some resistivity reduction even as more temperature was recorded in the T-Mica. This is extremely interesting. It may point to the loading/burning cycles suggested for commercial LENR configurations and why they need control and multiple reactors in a viable solution. Celani says that the bulk of the loading takes place in 10 - 20 minutes, this is what we found in our loading over the 10/11th November 2012 weekend. This would therefore require a reliable commercial design to have 3 active cells - 1 for cooling, one for loading and a third for “burning” and this may explain the configuration of 3 reactors in Rossi’s 1 MW reactor sub units or 9 in Defkalions configuration. When burning - a reactor working as part of a team could run at much higher temperatures producing dry steam even.

A single reactor would require times when it was at around 125-160 for loading and therefore would not be able to consistently output dry steam and therefore would be limited to producing low grade heat and may account for the specification of the home E-Cat and its need for kWs of heating 1 hour in six.

We also learned a lot about using the calibration data to determine the most useful calibration curves for excess power calculation.


Current test status

Our active run was done in a series of about 7 power steps to bring it up close to what we did during the calibration runs and allows us to compare how different wires are acting under different gas mixtures.

Based on our current assumptions, which we may need to review, we are measuring 2 to 3W of excess heat in the cell which has settled at about T_Mica= 265 C, however we do not consider this to be above the uncertainty/noise level, yet.

We will run the current experiment for a few days or until failure whichever is sooner - it will be interesting to follow:

  • any potential events
  • change in wire resistivity
  • change in excess heat generation

Really interestingly, it might show us the time it takes for most of the H2 to be “burned” / lost based on the R/R0. This might give us more clues as to the duty cycle of these reactions. Maybe because the cell produces a modest excess output, it can run for days, if it produced 100s Watts then maybe the celani cell would have to go through a H2 loading cycle relatively quickly. Loading is separated from excess heat - but we believe we have shown that it can occur in the same cell.

It will also give us some time to explore the robustness of our data broadcasting that was severely stressed during the early part of the test with the number of connections and data downloads. This forced a change in server that whilst faster failed.

 

Temp in cell may not be high enough to trigger LENR.

Specifically, the local temperature of the wire may not be high enough to create the effect.

Our cell takes more power to heat it, because less of the IR is thermalized in the quartz glass than the borosilicate glass. T_mica shows the closest value of what the temperature of the wire is, and Pr. Celani explained that optimal temperature for the effect was between 250 C and 350 C.

Furthermore, increased current may create more near IR which is partially lost thought the quartz tube, see our previous analysis.

We don't want to risk any more current in the wire at this stage.  We are already have twice the power that he had in his wire. It may damage it.

Reduce the pressure inside the cell to reduce thermal conductivity and decrease H2 recombination is our best option. At lower pressure we are able to increase the temperature inside the cell (T_mica) which might help triggering LENR effect without increasing the current inside the active wire. Because we did calibrations at 3 different temperatures, we are able to set what should be the pressure inside the cell for a certain amount of power injected.

If a set pressure of 2 bar at cold is not good enough to trigger the effect, we reduce the power input drastically and decrease the pressure at 0.5 bar. In this condition, the wire will tend to retain heat instead of dissipating it.

At some point we may decide to turn on both wires in order to achieve similar current and temperature  in the Celani Wire to what he had in the demonstration.

Loading process may also need to cycle for best effect

When we started the loading, we thought we had to do it over 2 - 3 days, which we kind of did. We heated the wire up to the requisite temp in H2 and let it sit there. Celani says however, that  the majority of the loading occurs in the first 10-20 mins as noted above - so why have it sit there for 3 days? Maybe we should be cycling it, ie, let it cool, bring it up to loading temp, repeat... n times.

In summary, after 11 hours since beginning to heat the Celani wire with current running through it,  the experiment is just starting.

Data file to be added here ASAP:

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0 #22 Stefan 2012-11-17 19:59
Even if Rossi and Defkalion have a practical LENR solution they will not share "IP" with community. This project allows a public validation of LENR irrelevantly to assumption about validity of Rossi or/and Defkalion claims. The bottom line is that such public project makes the believe or disbelieve in Rossi and/or Defkalion totally pointless.
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0 #21 Ryan Hunt 2012-11-13 16:32
We do pull vacuums between gasses and then purge the supply lines repeatedly. We are confident Oxygen is not getting into the cell in the current phase of the test because the pressure inside the cell is so much higher than atmospheric.
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-1 #20 Al Potenza 2012-11-13 16:27
While the conjecture about the configuration of Rossi and Defkalion reactors is interesting, I am concerned that you may be taking their claims too seriously. I won't argue the validity of their extravagant supposed results here but I have to point out that if they are right, there is not much point to this research.

If Rossi and Defkalion are virtually ready, as they claim, to sell commercial, stable and certified kilowatt level LENR reactors, what are you doing with single wires and arguable, low power levels? What's the point if the problem is already solved?

Your research makes the most sense if Rossi and Defkalion can not be believed. Thus, how they configure their reactors is sort of moot, don't you think?

As it happens, I don't believe Rossi and Defkalion and I think what you are doing is an excellent idea! Sorry to interrupt but I think it needed to be said.
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0 #19 Ecco 2012-11-13 16:27
@Gerard Essing: one could make several vacuum cycles with inert gases (for example helium) before injecting hydrogen to ensure that very little oxygen remains within the cell.
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0 #18 Gerard Essing 2012-11-13 15:45
Hi guys, great work and your efforts are much appreciated. A question that came to mind that perhaps was already addressed elsewhere: how sure can we be that no oxygen - hydrogen reaction occurs inside the tube?
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0 #17 David Jones 2012-11-13 15:32
Perhaps Celani adds just enough Ar to ensure that the temperature gradient across the gas mixture is great enough to reach the activation temperatures in the centre of the tube whilst ensuring the glass wall temperature remains below the softening point (~270 Celsius).
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0 #16 David Jones 2012-11-13 15:11
Ecco - good point I had not thought of that

think long - post short...
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0 #15 David Jones 2012-11-13 15:01
Hi Robert - nice to be of help

I also noticed in Celani's papers that he obtained the best results at wire temperatures as high as 900 Celsius.

I would suspect (from some experience) that heating these kind of wires to very high temperatures with high current is not too problematic - provided you take care not to induce too great a thermal shock - i.e. increase/decrea se current/temp slowly.
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0 #14 David Jones 2012-11-13 14:53
Reading Celani's papers the gas admixture is 75/25 H2/Ar. This makes no sense to me - why add a smallish proportion of inert gas (unless it is a typo in the paper)?

The thermal conductivity of Argon is 10 times less than H2. The addition of 10/90 H2/Ar (for example) might make sense if reducing the thermal conductivity of the gas admixture enables the necessary temperature to be reached to initiate the LENR.
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+1 #13 Ecco 2012-11-13 14:47
As expected (read message #9), as ambient temperature increases (perhaps due to people presence, lights turned on, etc), calculated excess power decreases. This what I can see from the most recent data from the live page here: data.hugnetlab.com/

It is likely that no excess heat is being generated at all, currently. It's true that this is still the beginning, though.
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0 #12 Ecco 2012-11-13 13:19
@mario palladino: personally I don't agree much that data smoothing to remove irregularities. They are part of the experiment. Let's get rid of them physically (for example by fixing the power supply), not artificially by software. By the way, there is a new data point every 2 seconds, so the data rate is 0.5 Hz, not 24 Hz.

It's true that in other blog posts here I did propose data decimation in order to save server bandwidth, but decimation, if not extreme, retains most of the trend characteristics for each data series (especially if we're just cutting out what cannot be displayed due to lack of chart display resolution), does not smooth out the existing data.

Note: to clarify, since I write here often, I'm not a sponsor or a member of the MFMP team.
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+1 #11 Ecco 2012-11-13 11:51
@Igor: they say that the same result will be accomplished by reducing hydrogen pressure inside the cell. In that way convective heat transfer towards the glass tube can be reduced, obtaining higher wire temperatures.

Of course, improving heat insulation would be the best option (and for the occasion, replacing the glass tube - since the inside would not be visible anymore anyway - with a steel tube might be a good idea for several reasons). That probably goes outside the scope of the current experimental phase (more or less exact replication of Celani's results with the same set-up).
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+1 #10 123star 2012-11-13 10:00
Ah, another thing, you spelled "Celsius" wrong on the graph you wrote "CelCius" :P
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+2 #9 Ecco 2012-11-13 09:30
As of now it looks like the more ambient temperature decreases, the more the calculated apparent excess heat increases. There appears to be a direct relationship between these, which leads me to believe that at the moment no excess heat is being generated at all, since reactor temperatures are also slowly but constantly decreasing too.

If this is true, then during the USA morning with people around the reactor, apparent excess heat should decrease again to yesterday's initial values.

A bit of a disappointment, but even Celani as far as I know doesn't have a 100% success rate with new treated wires. The ones that work, though, should clearly (and reliably) do so.
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+2 #8 123star 2012-11-13 08:46
Would you consider switching to an opaque metal casing? No hurry, by the way.
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+3 #7 David Jones 2012-11-13 07:58
One fix you might like to consider is to put an external glass tube over the quartz tube. This would provide you with both insulation and a clear line of sight.

I used to do this in my copper vapour laser research. (In my case to stop UV)

You could hold the glass outer tube in place using ‘PEEK’ ‘O’ rings placed around the quartz tube (these O rings are usable up to 550 Celsius). Cut one of the O rings to provide an air pressure equilibrium path.

machinedesign.com/.../...
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+3 #6 Lu 2012-11-13 05:35
Thanks guys for fighting and (hopefully) lighting fires throughout these past few days. The results are very interesting so far and especially the insights as to what is going on.

I found this presentation by Celani to also be very helpful:

22passi.it/.../...
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+13 #5 Robert Greenyer 2012-11-13 02:47
Hi Rats,

We saw something fascinating in the data that lends credence to some of the claims and configurations of players in this field. We are agnostic to the specific maker or inventor of a particular approach, we just want to see if we can help get the New Fire lit.

We are not setting out to show that a person is or is not telling the truth - we are just following the evidence and this evidence that we have seen come out of the first few hours of our first experiment is seemingly showing something really interesting.
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+3 #4 Ecco 2012-11-13 02:45
It's interesting to note that currently active wire impedance is steadily increasing. This appears to be correlated with the decrease of hydrogen pressure inside the cell (probably leaking).

Calculated excess power appears to be very slightly increasing too. However it's being significantly affected (at this level; I guess it wouldn't matter if excess power was larger) by irregularities in input power due to the power supply. A certain cyclical component in the output power chart trend definitely seems to be related to such power supply issues.
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-6 #3 Rats 2012-11-13 02:40
I don't want to turn this blog into one of those farcical ecat websites but it concerns me that you are mentioning Rossi and Defkalion while conducting serious LENR experiments. I think it has been quite conclusively proven that both have been lying through their teeth.
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