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Lugano resistance drop re-visited

on .

Could the drop in apparent resistance of the reactor heater element in the Lugano report be in part due to the core ceramic conducting at high temperature and partial shorting between the 3 phases?

There have been burn outs, core breaches, melted heater wire, hot spots and arcing thermocouples over the months.

Alan Goldwater deduced there was a drop in resistance in the ultra pure Al203 Coorstek cores we were using.

Discussion: http://goo.gl/TxtE0h

Direct Link: https://goo.gl/guRhzl

Additionally, SiO2 based ceramics resulted in plain shorts causing loss of thermocouples.

More recently, Adriano Bassignana made us aware of the Nernst Lamp


Of course, most replicators reactors to date have been single phase. So the differential between two adjacent coil loops where ceramic conductivity has increased would be lower than that between a parallel, helically wound, 3 phase coil.

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0 #15 EccoEcco 2015-10-06 16:08
Not about Lugano, but related to Rossi's Fluid Heater patent (patft.uspto.gov/.../... ). I just wanted to remark that:

...for example by heating the nickel powder to for times and temperatures selected to superheat any water...
was probably intended to be:

...for example by heating the nickel powder two-four times at temperatures selected to superheat any water...
Try imagining this as it was Rossi saying it on the phone to his patent attorney.

(sorry, I didn't know where else to put this)
0 #14 Robert Greenyer 2015-09-29 08:23

Closing the loop would do it too. i.e. all control and stimulation power harnessed from output to run reactor for beyond chemical possibility.
0 #13 charlie tapp 2015-09-28 17:59
Or long time ssm
0 #12 Robert Greenyer 2015-09-28 15:02

This is the kind of Discussion that Bob Higgins and I had.

This and the wrong use of Emissivity means that for me, it all comes down to seeing statistically significant transmutations.
+1 #11 Tom Clarke 2015-09-26 16:38

You will not perhaps think this relevant but:
3 phase makes it very easy to get an apparent COP=3 for free by inverting one of the input clamps on the power meter.

Without a proper power meter 3 phase makes input power measurement problematic.

The complexity makes errors in input power measurement, whether unintentional or deliberate, much more possible.
+1 #10 Tom Clarke 2015-09-26 16:34

All quantities RMS

For the same 3 resistive elements of equal resistance and 3 phase full waveform of line voltage V (we can revisit that later):

Y - resistor voltage is V, current is V/R, Power is V^2R

Delta -
resistor voltage is V|(1- (-0.5+0.866j))| = sqrt(3)V,
resistor current is sqrt(3)V/R,
power is I^2R = 3V^2R

The key thing is that delta increases element voltage by sqrt(3) over line voltage. compared with Y.

The Y equivalent resistance is reduced by the square of this (a factor of 3).

see wikipedia for details.

So for this to work we need:
Dummy run: Wye
Active run: Delta

Motivation? For limited range of V in from control box delta with give higher power than Y.

There are other darker possible motivations.

But motivation is all speculation.

What is fact is that the numbers given make sense for this change in setup, and given that the reactor must have been disconnected and reconnected such a change is possible.

The testers should have recorded this change, but we know that their work had issues in other areas - most notably a singular lack of controls of any kind (no independent temperature measurement, no dummy reactor at same power) and an error in how they calculated temperatures.
0 #9 charlie tapp 2015-09-25 19:19
@robert greenyer after looking into inductors it appears you may need to open a whole new conversation on the matter. We may need someone in electronics to help. The reactor is essentially a inductor with a magnetizeable core which is the dual of a capacitor for electric the difference being it is a capacitor for magnetism blocking higher frequency ac allowing lower frequency dc to flow through in some cases, by setting up voltages and amperage inside of the core creating their own magnetic fields called eddy currents. Resisting the applied currents and voltages. these currents are probably what Rossi is tapping for direct electricit production but also goes back to me remembering a ground wire being connected maybe this bleeds off these eddy currents allowing the reaction to take place also could be bleeding off the electrons trying to conduct through the hot tube hard to say. The reaction itself may create it's own eddy currents but if there is already currents in place may not be able to co exist and therefore no reaction so you have to get rid of the applied currents (ie) the ground path. To much Wikipedia can anyone help with that
0 #8 charlie tapp 2015-09-25 15:01
@ glowfish maybe phase angle, possibly inductance properties associated with the opposite coils and hot conductive tube, or having the three coils may act as a barrier for conductance of the hot tube some how saving the coils from destruction. hard to say really not enough info on it from rossi . but all I know is no one has tried it yet that I know of and I would personaly like to see it in action. just to call it a real replication of course. it would be nice to see a bare tube wraped with the three phase coils in a why configuration and recorded and then rewired for delta and recorded using exact same settings on power and length of time to compare something simple
0 #7 GlowFish 2015-09-25 10:31
A question. Why use three phase? Other than a little less energy ripple to the heater (which is not that relevant as the heater should have a long thermal constant) and perhaps a higher power source, what advantage do you gain for the price all that extra complexity?
+2 #6 Robert Greenyer 2015-09-23 09:56

Nick Oseyko said

"I had tried heating mullite pipe with torch back in May. Becomes very conductive before melting. 1 cm gap was about 100 ohms."

Given that there was barely more than a few millimetres between phases in the Lugano reactor, and a large potential difference between them, this effect cannot be dismissed easily.
0 #5 Robert Greenyer 2015-09-23 08:54
@Tom Clark

I did posit the idea almost immediately, as did others, of the Y-D change in and outside MFMP discussions as a potentially part of solving the mystery. I did some calculations as others did, but I am no expert on 3-phase, perhaps you could share your calculations.
0 #4 charlie tapp 2015-09-22 22:21
@tom Clark is there three power wires on each side of the reactor I can't remember? You would have to have each winding come out on both sides to change from y to d where as y would have all three wires connected at one side of reactor with each wire on the other side being a power leg and for d the coils would all have to be hooked in a series loop and power legs connected at each junction were a and b connect b And c connect and c to a connect. I don't remember that many wires hanging everywhere. I was thinking it was hooked up in a y configuration with the set of wires on the left and the wires on the right were thermocouples but they did use cameras for heat monitoring so they could have just fed them out the other side makeing it possible to change the configuration but what would be the reason for that would be a gigantic change In resistance as a to b would only travel through 1 coil in a d configuration and In a y configuration a to b would actually travel through two coils unless I am wrong , and trust me Ecco catches me doing that alot
0 #3 charlie tapp 2015-09-22 21:58
is the issue with conductivity at high temps the reason Lugano used the cameras instead of thermocouples ? And what would happen if you put a reactor inside of a microwave oven? you couldn't really monitor to much but may be able to look for periods of ssm rather quickly just with ir gun and a stop watch after of course you find out if it is possible to get to those temps with a microwave. I personally am looking for ssm for evidence more than anything else as that would put a final nail in it. A microwave oven would supply lots of varying voltages and magnetic fields inside the core i think so anyways I have tried the lightbulb in a cup of water on high and it flashes pretty good
0 #2 Tom Clarke 2015-09-22 21:58
PS - you won't find my comment on ECW since Frank Acland clearly considers it inflammatory and refuses to publish it, also he has permanently banned me from that site.

Which I don't mind, but it does make discussion there less informed than one would wish.
+2 #1 Tom Clarke 2015-09-22 21:54
So I claim to be something of an expert on the Lugano experiment, having dissected it in great detail:

I don't claim any personal insights, nearly everything I now understand comes from other people ideas cleaned up and rehashed till it is consistent.

My current view of the resistance drop is this. The dummy tests were conducted with a Y configuration of resistors. Between dummy and active tests the configuration was changed to Delta.

This is possible given that the resistor wires are connected some way away from the reactor.

Why it was done? You can think of various reasons.

Why it was not recorded in the write-up? Bad practice - but in ;line with other such, so entirely possible. In theory it makes no difference to the power measurement - though in practice it could have an effect.

So - given this theory there is no resistance change, since the electrical configuration change exactly accounts for the resistance. (Actually there is still a 5% or so discrepancy, but asymmetry in the resistances, very likely, or different connection wire length, can account for that).

That would then also mean the resistance elements could be Inconel.

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