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I found, yesterday, a very reasonable explanation for why the cells showed a large difference.  It's all about the difference in ambient that each cell sees.  The write up is in our EverNote experiment notebook here:  https://www.evernote.com/pub/malachiheder/celanicellusv1.3evernotelog

That meant that I had to make an addendum to my preliminary report I made a couple weeks ago.  That is here:  Report with Addendum

Dr Kidwell, my happiness is off the charts.

The end result is that I am even more committed to surveying the history of experiments and replications and look for opportunities to do validation/replication. 

 

 

Comments   

 
0 #6 charlie tapp 2013-09-25 15:46
@ryan hunt so in laymans terms so i can understand would the 6% be 1.06 cop. and can we even say with out a doubt that it at least breaks even ? what is cop on the average for all tests ( .90 .95 .98 ) ? would breaking even be 1.00 ?
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0 #5 Ryan Hunt 2013-09-24 20:08
There are currently no tests that are beyond doubt. We have seen in some of the tests about 6%. We have definitely not seen anything like the 40% from Celani's original demo.
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0 #4 charlie tapp 2013-09-24 19:02
@Ryan hunt what to date have we shown for a cop on any of the cells for sure ? With no doubts
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0 #3 Ryan Hunt 2013-09-20 14:45
Ed, lovely graphs and discussion, as usual. Your two graphs tell me that the T_Ext1 is modulated by the general trend in Ambient AND the Difference between the two cells as well. Someone more clever at math can probably derive T_ext=F((T_amb_ average),(T_amb difference)) for a given power.
It also looks like our measure of Ambient, in addition to being affected by the cell temperature slightly, is either not a good representation of the ambient experienced by the cells, or there are higher order effects of the ambient on the measured temperature.
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0 #2 Robert Greenyer 2013-09-20 08:31
@Edwin Pell

The ambient sensors are in line of site for the wire (through the borosilicate) in the US set-up and despite being shielded have demonstrated that they are effected. In one shutdown from say 120ºC glass temp to room temp, I recall the ambient sensor dropped 0.8ºC, I haven't gone back to the data to confirm, but if ambient was 22ºC - this would represent a 3.6% change in 'ambient reading'. One thing to note, that if there was some IR from the wire that was not thermalised/emi tted due to the Borosilicate tube, then this might possibly be thermalised on the ambient sensors opaque shielding.

Although there is only 1 ambient sensor in the EU cells, it is not in line of sight of the wires it is between the much cooler end flanges so there is no chance of wire IR influence and effects from the higher glass temp. It is also in a white polystyrene sphere to diffuse bounce incident thermal radiation and would receive 50% incident from 1 each of both cells end flanges. In addition it is also at the same vertical elevation in the room as the cells centre so is exposed to the same vertical thermocline. This came about through testing of the room in France and noticing that different elevations read different temps, which is to be expected. Lastly, the thermostat for the room HVAC is in the same plane between the linearly arranged cell end flanges.
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0 #1 Edwin Pell 2013-09-19 20:17
Malachi, here is a plot of (cell B Trise - cell A Trise) and TambA-23 and TambB-23. My understanding is that Trise B is TextB - TambB, likewise for A.

1abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz2abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

I do not see how the ambient can effect the delta of the two cells. Any delta A vs B in the ambient is already removed. The plot is (cell B Text - cell B amb) - (cell A Text - cell A amb)

There are various peaks and valleys at positions 1s, 1x, 2, 2b, 2j, 2k-m that are not matched between the two ambient and delta. And the big negtaive in delta is not matched by any thing happening in the ambient.

Where is the Tamb sensor placed? Is it seeing the IR radiation from the wire?

Here is delta Text and delta Tamb it seems 8% of the delta Text is measured in delta Tamb. I think the causal arrow is delta Text is influencing delta Tamb. Also note the correlation is not very good, some times the two are completely out of sync.

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