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HUG Concentric Calorimeter

Keep up to date with the experiments using HUGs flexible Concentric Calorimeter right here.
Please feel free to add your comments to the blog entries.

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How many Celani wires can we fit in a tube?

on .

It sounds like the start of a joke, doesn't it?

Many times we have thought about trying to amp up the signal to noise on these experiments by testing with more wires.  Good news - it's time, and we need your help to determine the most expedient protocol.  Here is the start we have:

Our Concentric Tube Calorimeter is ready for a new test.  Which wires should we put into this test?

These are the wires we have and what we propose to install.  

-400 layer - 1/2 meter - 40 cm installed

-350 layer - 1 meter    - 40 cm installed

-270 layer - 1 meter    - 40 cm installed

-400 layer - possibly damaged from version 1.3 cell overcurrent



Here is the LENR Stick we are preparing.  Pictures of Multiwire  Cell:

NiCr heating wire wrapped in fiberglass insulation sleeving up and down on the last 7-8 inches (20 cm) of LENR Stick reactor.  Large fiberglass insulation sleeve over the whole end of the LENR Stick reactor.  This will serve to hold the heater in place and to slightly insulate the reactor.



Thermocouple on the outside of the stainless steel reactor is the same spot as the two inside thermocouples.  About 3-4 inches (10 cm) from the end of the reactor.

The whole reactor unit with two pass-throughs and 4 conductors that will allow us to measure the resistance on 3 wires.  Plus it gives us two thermocouples on the inside of the reactor.  


Experiment Open Engagement Plan

Here is our plan to develop this experiment:

- Develop plan to some extent (as we have here)

- post for criticism and suggestions.  The large amount of wire in a small space should be interesting to watch, plus it tests many wires simultaneously and if we see nothing, we move on to another batch of wires.  

- We should discuss the inclusion of acetone later in the test.

- Do we care about resistance drop?  We’ll have the pressure drop. What is P(t0)?  I expect we will charge to several bar and watch it decrease and then replenish, if necessary.

- What else have we had issues with in the past that we will want to prepare for or eliminate this time?

- We have heard that ST Microelectronics heated their wires passively, ramped up in long, small steps, and cycled the several times before seeing excess energy.  Let's try that.

- Having the heater outside the stainless tube should mean that any energy generated inside the tube will create a higher temp inside than outside.

- How are the lengths of wire fit into the cell?  We can sleeve them in fiberglass and we'll need some sort of insulation if we are going to measure the resistance of 3 of them.  Or we have to insert them into ceramic tubes.  Or support them and hold them apart in some other way?

We have about 20 CM of length available in the tube, so the easiest thing is 40 cm of wire sleeved and folded in half and connected to the copper conductors on each end. Additional unconnected wires can be shoved into the tube in any length, I guess.


Throw out your suggestions into the comments!


Some Experiment Protocol Ideas

- Assemble test cell without active wires

- Use for calibration test of the calorimeter (at the prescribed run pressure of 0.5bar)

- Test for leaks at the same time - during long time at constant power - look for overall stability

- Watch for interior temps vs shell temps

Take weight, length the wires

- SEM sample of each wire - characterize thickness of shell

- Install all the active wires we can spare.  (Or do we install 40 cm worth so we can do it again?)

- How much vacuum and degassing, if any, do we want?  Look to Celani and ST Microelectronics for guidance - no degassing beyond .5 mBar vacuum, just loading, small 6 hour steps and then cooling off after peak temperature. 

- Pressure for Loading  - will require several cycles maybe 10 cycles- do we want to cool and vacuum between recharging the pressure to purge any H20?  

- Cool down

- Heat and trigger?

- Cool

- Add acetone (make sure design allows for this conveniently)

- heat to same level as previously

- Watch power output levels.

I am starting a formal procedure doc here Protocol:  Multi-Wire Test (read only).  We will update it from the suggestions we get in the comments.  If anyone is super excited to help pull together the suggestions and edit the document, let me know.  Thanks

-Ryan Hunt

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0 #27 speed test checker 2017-11-19 17:24
Thanks for finally talking about >How many Celani wires can we fit in a tube?
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0 #23 Ryan Hunt 2013-06-11 15:34
@Ben - There will be a control/calibra tion run with the same cell before the wires are put in place. We only have one of these calorimeters at the moment, so we won't be doing simultaneous tests with them.
0 #22 Ben 2013-06-11 13:09
Is there going to be a control cell with non-functional wires?
0 #21 Robert Greenyer 2013-06-11 07:48

What Robert said
0 #20 Robert Ellefson 2013-06-11 05:59
Quoting frasp:
Don't stick data in the cloud. If you do, you have exactly no control. And just because it's in the cloud you don't automagically get good uptime.

Go with an intelligent backup routine instead.

The cloud comes with many advantages, along with disadvantages such as you listed. There are ways to mitigate these downsides, however. Another approach to backup is distributed data replication, which is what cloud services often perform, but you can also do it yourself outside of the cloud, using participating LOS network nodes as replication servers along with the data they are natively distributing.
0 #19 frasp 2013-06-11 04:51
Don't stick data in the cloud. If you do, you have exactly no control. And just because it's in the cloud you don't automagically get good uptime.

Go with an intelligent backup routine instead.

Best regards /

0 #18 Robert Greenyer 2013-06-08 18:59

We are as frustrated as you, and understaffed!

There was a big downtime partly due to actually building experiments but mostly due to what turned out to be because of a failed hard drive in a raid, we are working out how we can move all data to the cloud, but that is going to take months. Then there was a software upgrade that went wrong - process has changed.

We are also working out how we can use this plugin


To show live data in the experiment blog window. We have made good progress and this will greatly ease peoples ability to follow experiments. We are having to invent this as we go!

The log for this experiment is up to date. Data is nearly up to date.

The data is live for the EU V1.3 cells which are going through calibration however logbook isn't, but Mathieu records to paper also. Mathieu has been snowed under having had to do the last minute trip to the EU.

We have a team meeting tomorrow, we will address your concern.
0 #17 Drew 2013-06-08 18:21
Dear MFMP,
Your goal was OPEN LIVE SCIENCE, fantastic and I like it. However the last several months the live data stream has been intermittent at best, and there do not seem to be ANY experimental logs for many of the experiments.Als o you are running many experiments for which it is very hard to find what they are for. I am close to not bothering to look anymore. The live data is essential and the logs for each experiment, and an accompanying explanation of the experiment needs to be updated daily. I appreciate the experiments are fascinating to you but they are to us too!
0 #16 Mitch Trachtenberg 2013-06-08 17:24
I like the idea of working to increase the S/N ratio. The only thing I can think of, offhand, that would improve this would require duplicating the experimental setup, and having the person installing the "live" wires in one and the "dead" wires in the other remaining blind to which wires were which.

Ideally, the wiring would be performed by an external but skilled volunteer who signs a document indicating they have no clue of what "Celani wire" looks like as opposed to other wire. That person would be provided with two sets of wires, "1" and "2" and two setups "A" and "B." They would flip a coin and install a set of wires in "A" and a set of wires in "B," and document in a sealed envelope the connections between 1, 2, A, and B.

Only after the experiment's conclusion should those who have analyzed the data gain access to the envelope showing which cell was live and which was dead.
0 #15 Ecco 2013-06-07 20:38
Thanks for explaining. Speaking as a total chemistry newbie here, is there any chance for nickel tetracarbonyl formation inside the cell? I understand it's a very toxic gas even at minute concentrations. I think I've read it might have a role in Ni-H LENR processes, though.
+1 #14 Ryan Hunt 2013-06-07 20:30
Exactly, Ed and Ecco. The acetone (CH3)2CO breaks down on the hot wire. As we saw from Celani and our earlier experiments, some of the carbon deposits itself on the wire. It probably releases CO, CO2, H20, and H2 gasses in various amounts. The end result is more molecules of gas and a higher pressure. The rate of pressure rise probably corresponds roughly to the rate of carbon accumulation on the surface.
We have heard reports that the hydrocarbon breakdown frees hydrogen atoms that load the wire, too. I don;t know what effect it will have that our wire is already loaded. Probably more hydrogen in the resulting gasses.
We'll have to figure out if we want to stop at some point and vacuum the gasses out and over pressure with hydrogen.
Plus, since part of the volume of the cell is at room temp, we may have condensation of water and acetone in those areas. That means the actual concentration of acetone and water at the hot wire is close tot he vapor pressure of those at room temperature.
+1 #13 Edwin Pell 2013-06-07 20:07
Ecco, my guess would be the acetone is dissociating to hydrogen gas.
0 #12 Ecco 2013-06-07 19:30
Unrelated with the multi-wire CTC experiment, but it is with the currently ongoing single-wire one (it might still apply in the future for the multiwire experiment).

Yesterday 2 ml of acetone were added. Power was then applied at regular intervals. Internal pressure is stil increasing, currently at a linear rate. When power is removed from the cell, pressure remains elevated.

Is anybody able to explain what's going on inside the cell, chemically speaking?
0 #11 charlie tapp 2013-06-07 17:12
also i do not know if water calimetry is a good idea i am not a rocket scientest but at home i have noticed on my water cooler if i put a cup with water in it on top for some reason water will condence very clearly directly under the cup after a few minutes of course the longer it sits the more water that accumulates to the point it will fall back down i call that overunity no work, anyways it has to be a electrical action of somekind so i think the cell makes some moisture inside i may be wrong but if it does it will be attracted to the water on the outside possible giveing weird readings. not sure just a thought
0 #10 charlie tapp 2013-06-07 17:04
i was reading an article in july four wheeler mag. a metalergist talks about useing liquid nitrogen in some forms of metal treatment, and for reasons not understood the liquid nitrogen repairs deformations in the crystal structure of metal. makeing it more perfect, mabee you could repair the damaged celani wire this way or have celani try this on a new wire before treating it makeing a better nano structure? it starts off at room temp doesnt sound very difficult.

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