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The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is a group dedicated to researching Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (often referred to as LENR) while sharing all procedures, data, and results openly online. We rely on comments from online contributors to aid us in developing our experiments and contemplating the results. We invite everyone to participate in our discussions, which take place in the comments of our experiment posts. These links can be seen along the right-hand side of this page. Please browse around and give us your feedback. We look forward to seeing you around Quantum Heat.

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TOPIC: Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

#270 6 years 5 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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I am trying to locate the method that is used to calculate the Power Output of the device. I recall in one of your earlier blog entries that the Power Output column was calculated from the reading of one of the temperature sensors and if memory serves me correctly, it was the Outside Glass surface.

Could you confirm this method of calculation?

I would appreciate it very much if you would reveal the equation that you use defining this relationship.

If you have an opportunity, would you also give a brief description of the manner in which you performed a curve fit to arrive at the final equation.

Thanks guys and happy holiday.

P.S. I may have answered my own question with a bit of digging. I located the closest time region where the input power went from 0 to max and obtained the data for T_GlassOut and PowerOut. A curve fit was applied to the data and I obtained a perfect fit with the equation:

P(T)=.0022*T*T + .1698*T -4.6013. The R^2=1 for this fit. I assume that an earlier curve fit was performed during calibration which I merely uncovered.
Last Edit: 6 years 5 months ago by Dave.
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#287 6 years 5 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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The temperature through a glass window can sometimes be read by an IR thermometer. I think it depends on the IR wavelengths used in the measurement instrument. Usually two wavelengths are ratioed and if the two wavlengths are readily tramsmitted by the glass, a pretty good estimate can be obtained. (Assuming the emissivity to be near 1.0) "Glass" is a pretty generic term. Most types are somewhat transmissive throughout the visible down to about 2.3 microns. This range suggests where the IR thermometer optics should be chosen and the IR device should be carefullly matched with the glass transmissions..

JDK
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#310 6 years 5 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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I have made a simple resistor-capacitor simulation of the heat flows in the LENR reactor. I used LTspiceIV to solve the third order differential equations in the circuit. The temperature difference between the inside and outside of the tube drives the outward thermal transport assuming the thermal conductivity is constant over the temperature range (usually a reasonable assumption). We must also assume no significant thermal gradients within the tube (not very likely since there is no flow or turbulence inside the LENR tube until the process begins.)

Web address of LTSpiceIV download:
www.linear.com/designtools/software/?gcl...lFMgody0MAQw#LTspice

I will try to attach the schematic file which will allow simulation to be run.


jdk


I could not get the "Add File" button to function. I need some help.
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#319 6 years 5 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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I've made a useful thermal model using resistors and capacitors and SPICE to solve the differential equations. I have had some troubles getting the files downloaded, One more try. The add button still doesn't work.

Basically the results of my efforts show that the temperature of the heater wire and the temperature of the LENR wire represent the important observable variables. As long as the thermal input is coming from the heater wire, there should be a somewhat lower temperature observed on the active LENR wire. As the LENR effect kicks in, the LENR wire should get hotter that the heater wire.


jdk
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#399 6 years 4 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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If it isn't the assumptions that cause the trouble, then it must be the facts that are wrong.
We hope the calorimeter can be read by looking at the glass outside temperature. We calibrate with the best strategy we can think of. What are the assumptions? After reading some calorimetry "books", it seems all of the techniques depend on a constant heat transport at all the interfaces and a dependable heat capacity of all the internal ingrediants of our device. If physical, chemical or otherwise mystical transformations take place internally, almost all calorimeters will read wrongly. The adiabatic type seems to be the exception. The present device has signifigant heat losses driven by heat transport through several unstable (changeable) conductances. If the gas composition changes, or the thermal conductivity of the heater wires changes then the temperature of the glass tube will also change. The calibration curves are generated from circumstances which can be very different from our reaction tube. I would be very cautious about using the outside temperature as a clear indicator of power generation. It is more likely to mean that some sort of unexpected and unknown internal change is underway.
I think the issue needs more discussion.


jdk
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#400 6 years 4 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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Hi JDK

This is for certain - that is why the steel insulated cell and Air Flow Calorimeter (AFC) may be combined.

The Steel cell settles the IR thermalisation debate. The Insulation should result in much higher signal to noise ratio if there is an effect, it should also really average the temp. The AFC may initially be used merely to create a very constant environment temperature.
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#401 6 years 4 months ago
Power Out Calculated From Glass Outside Temp?

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The air flow calorimetry should sum all the heat flows -electrical inputs, chemical outputs, LENR effects etc. By keeping it close in temperature to the room's ambient temperature, heat flows from the machine (losses) tend to go to zero.

I just finished reading :
144.206.159.178/ft/849/46359/14264965.pdf

This is a review on modulation calorimetry. The technique measures heat flow in the presence of a changing thermal environment. The energy input consists of a fixed DC power and a smaller AC (from 0.1 to 1000 hz.) component. A good read, but, in quick summary, I think it requires a system with a fixed or at least only slowly varying heat capacity and thermal transport coefficient. Most importantly, the output power signal needs to be time correlated with the modulated power. I don't think LENR will be detectable.

The air flow calorimetry device uses similar techniques to modulation calorimetry. The problems with variable heat capacity and variable thermal transport in the LENR device are somewhat mitigated. The task becomes simply to measure how much heat is escaping from the stainless steel cylinder by heating of the surrounding air. If the thermal conductivity of the air/cylilnder interface is comwhat variable, the cylinder temperatures will simply change until the thermal equilibrium is reached. Or something like that.

The glass temperature is very sensitive to the ratio of hydrogen to atomic hydrogen in the tube. There is no easy way to measure the atomic hydrogen (if any). Atomic hydrogen is readily generated with very high temepratures (2000K) or electric arcs, or active catalysts (glass and metals). It is very reactive chemically. The kinetics of its disapparance are driven by the local environment, but a continuous generator would be essential. Atomic hydrogen will cause the glass temperature to increase.

jdk
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