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The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is a group dedicated to researching Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (often referred to as LENR) while sharing all procedures, data, and results openly online. We rely on comments from online contributors to aid us in developing our experiments and contemplating the results. We invite everyone to participate in our discussions, which take place in the comments of our experiment posts. These links can be seen along the right-hand side of this page. Please browse around and give us your feedback. We look forward to seeing you around Quantum Heat.

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TOPIC: The water barrel experiment

#527 10 years 4 months ago
The water barrel experiment

Umino's Avatar
I think you might know by now that over time I somewhat lost confidence that MFMP experiments will find positive results from Celani wires. One reason for this is that the calorimetry used so far has most always been either too complex, too weak, always requiring calibrations, or with too many failure points, and attempts in something better have always resulted in delays because of the time or money needed to set them up properly.

I think there is a very effective experiment involving just very basic physics and a very simple and cheap testing setup that could be made. This would be accomplished by submerging a testing cell (ideally only the active part, like the cartridge heating element of the CTC cell) in a relatively large, insulated container containing a known amount of water (say 50 liters) and attempting to calculate output energy by the rise in water temperature above ambient, sampled from multiple spots over a certain amount of time; in other words, with actual work rather than just the increase in reactor temperature.

This would have several advantages including:
  • Simplicity -> by reducing the testing apparatus to the minimum complexity needed to show and measure excess heat. No need for auxiliary tools or devices (pumps, tubing, etc), just an insulated water container, a couple temperature sensors for water temperature, one for ambient temperature, and time.

  • Affordability -> by not requiring expensive controls, sensors, equipment and materials except the bare minimum needed to run the cell. This would easily allow running different experiments at once at little added cost (excluding that of the cell).

  • Straightforwardness -> output energy calculation can be performed potentially just by knowing the amount of water, its temperature and time elapsed, although calibrations to determine the heat loss curve of the container and other things would help increasing accuracy. This means that irrefutable data would be produced as it doesn't need high expertise in calorimetry, any actual knowledge of LENR or of how the cell is made. If positive, this experiment should be able to convince pretty much anybody.

  • Removing or averaging out most variables -> the fact that we have only to care about water temperature + the large amount of water and long time constant ensuring that small variations in testing conditions (like ambient temperature, though it would help if it were more or less constant over the day) are not very relevant anymore.

A possible disadvantage is that this experiment is not suited to determine quick changes in cell conditions/output.

Overall efficency can be calculated very simply by dividing output energy by the input energy (which is easy to obtain as long as plain DC current is used). Even if output energy equalled input energy, it would already very strongly indicate LENR excess heat, as in practice (due to heat losses) more energy than what theoretically calculated is needed to heat a certain amount of water to a set temperature.

Comments? Suggestions?
Possible issues? (for example water stratification)


(copy/pasted from the blog section so it doesn't get lost)

-> It's important that the container is well insulated. An ideally insulated water container (= no heat loss) would make it possible to calculate output energy precisely just by knowing the amount of water and its temperature over time.

As far as I understand heat loss from a real world open water tank occurs mainly through evaporation and radiation from the water surface, and the higher the temperature is, the worse this problem gets. So it's important that the container is closed and of course also well insulated.

What we want is therefore an insulated tank/barrel with a closed lid, containing a relatively large amount of water (50-100 liters) and a relatively large goal temperature difference from ambient, but not too large (for example somehing like 25-30 C) in order to avoid having to deal with excessive evaporation losses.

This would be a slow, but pretty "safe" experiment to perform.

This page uses imperial units but gives a rough idea of what to expect with heat losses from an open water container: www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-loss-ope...ter-tanks-d_286.html
Last Edit: 10 years 4 months ago by Umino.
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