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Weird Black Goo?

Scritto da Ryan Hunt on .

This morning after completing one an a half calibration cycles in Helium at 1 bar, we looked at the comparison between the first run and the second.  

Cell 1.1 had a very close tolerance of 1.5C max variation between the first cycle and the second.  InCell 1.0, though,the second run was almost 4 degrees cooler on the second run, mostly at the higher temperatures.

That lead us to wonder if the resistance had changed significantly enough to alter the power in.  Instead, we had a mystery.  

 

When we looked a the pressure, it got even more mysterious.  What would cause the pressure to go up when it was already above atmospheric?

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The answer become both more obvious and more mysterious, yet, when we inspected the cell.

A crazy, black coating on the Isotan wire!

 

Our best interpretation is that, despite the baking of the mica before assembling the cell, there must have been something left to off gas.  Last time we noticed off gassing from the mica the material formed a sticky, hazy film on the glass and flanges - it seemed to like the cool places.  This time, whatever this material is, it seems to have been catalytically broken down on the hot surface of the Isotan.  This made more gas.  The higher pressure gas conducted better and the residue on the wires insulated them, making them run hotter, and at a higher resistance.  

Next step:  Disassemble the cell, again, and replace the Isotan.  Any other suggestions?

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+1 #39 someone 2013-01-08 23:51
@Robert Greenyer

I hope this isn't perceived as trying to take over this page >_>;

What I wanted to add .. I hope your doctor has you on the maximum amount of daily dosages of allopurinol.(up to 600 mg / day is starting to be given, but 300 is considered absolutely safe).. If you are still having gout attacks while on that maximum dosage , ask your doctor to look into adding a regular ingestion of Guafenesin (a common and relatively harmless ingredient in cough medication) to your medication.
As for colchicine it should only be taken for the first few days of an attack, then stopped immediately when the diarrhea sets in. (your doctor will tell you of course ). Younger doctors will often never have prescribed the stuff in their careers so you'll have to drag them out of their comfort zone .

There , I think I've said my peace on gout , again , sorry for the off topic blabbering.

Good job on the new calibration btw.
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0 #38 Ryan Hunt 2013-01-08 15:45
I'm gonna do a blog article this morning about the re-calibration process. Both cells fell right back into the same lines after being re-built, which gives us really good faith in the repeat-ability of the apparatus.

Yesterday we just put together the stainless cell in an insulation jacket and we'll put that into the AFC today.

We built another calorimeter that is sort of like a seebek type with RTD sensors. It calibrates out pretty well, but needs to be in a better controlled temperature environment. It also has a long time constant (2 hours to fully settle), so it will be good for long term averages, but not really an indication of things happening rapidly
We're looking at loading the Celani wire today into the vertical cells and starting a helium cycle just to prove it is installed in a comparable way. If we see a higher temp, we'll have to determine if it is from a difference in installation or LENR.
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0 #37 Robert Greenyer 2013-01-08 12:16
@Somsone

Big thanks for that tip - I had not heard of Colchicine, it does not seam to have the full smorgasbord of side effects that Indomethacin has - only permanent neural damage - but none of the heart failure and other stuff. My current loose stools could well be a side effect - so if that is the worst you suffer, I shall look out for it. I am feeling a few twinges in my toe right now which I hope will subside.

As any gout sufferer will know, if there was a means of converting pain to electricity it could power the universe!
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0 #36 Somsone 2013-01-08 09:26
@Robert Greenyer

Being a gout sufferer myself , and being allergic to aspirin and nsaid's I swear by the virtues of Colchicine. To me , except for attacks of explosive diarrhea Colchicine is the best compound to stop the inflammation.

Glad to hear the hiatus will only be temporary.

Get well soon.
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0 #35 Robert Greenyer 2013-01-08 07:41
@Eric

It is a fun ride for sure. Will make a great documentary.

I was aware that they were / are British, but the recent public UK progress in this field is lamentable.
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0 #34 Eric Walker 2013-01-08 07:12
It sounds like you are having an adventure. A few more of these episodes and you will have paid your LENR dues.

You may have heard that Fleischman, Bockris and several others hailed from the University of Southampton, which was a leading university in electrochemistr y.
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+2 #33 Robert Greenyer 2013-01-08 07:02
@all

The project was doing live calibrations over Christmas and a live run was meant to start on the 31st - but there have been a series of setbacks as you can see above. There have been Log book entries up till 4th. We are working very hard in the background.

For my part, I was visiting an Indian authority representative with a view to their top scientific bodies taking an active role in the project. Given that the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are active already in LENR or open to it, I am looking forward to the time when western authorities outside Italy start taking a similarly serious interest in this field. I dispair that the land of my birth, UK, is so absent in the LENR chronicles especially so given that Fleischmann was British.

I had to travel to a distant town for the meeting, whilst there, I had seafood, pulses and beer and so suffered a severe Gout attack, having medicated with Indomethacin, one of the few chemicals that makes a difference - I was one of the lucky 1% to suffer the severe psychological side effects of the drug, subsequent to which I got dysentery including high fever which I am currently recovering from.

Thankyou for your continued attention, normal programming will resume shortly!
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+2 #32 Rats 2013-01-08 02:42
I too am curious as to when we'll see the latest test cell in action.
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+2 #31 Somsone 2013-01-07 23:37
I see the updates have stopped since december 31st.

Did the project take a week off or has it been halted ?
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0 #30 Chuck 2013-01-07 05:15
#29 @Eric, that's why I suggested a simpler (and inert) support system consisting of nothing more than sheet mica. The good, capacitor-grade stuff from India or Russia should do just fine. No binder.
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0 #29 Eric Walker 2013-01-07 03:55
I wonder whether the binder is much of an issue. The way for this experiment to be considered an unqualified success is to see a time integral of power generation well above anything possible in a prolonged chemical reaction. So even if the binder was somehow contributing heat, this would contribute at most a second order effect in a successful set of runs.

As Sanjeev mentions, it is possible that the binder could hinder a possible LENR reaction, although it might also catalyze one. It does, however, add an additional variable into the mix, making considerations more complex.
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+1 #28 AlanG 2013-01-05 19:03
Here's a chart to illustrate:

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+1 #27 AlanG 2013-01-05 19:01
@David Roberson -
This looks like noise in the glass temp channels. It is curious that the variations of T_GlassIn and T_GlassOut seem to be out of phase. P_out may still be displayed from those, and the out-of-phase relationship will increase the calculated P_out delta.

The statistical analysis of the previous data suggested better confidence in measurements at the core, and T_well and T_mica look pretty stable in this time interval.
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0 #26 David Roberson 2013-01-05 02:05
Something unusual is happening with the latest run. At about 4/5 of the way to the end of the 103 watt power input level there is a noticeable increase in power output. Did someone modify the test at that time?

Check out the system at 1/5/2013 at 1:27. If the wire were loaded and of the proper type, I would assume this peak demonstrates excess power.

This is for cell data:FC0101.
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0 #25 AlanG 2013-01-04 17:24
The previous blog "Rebuilt" shows the pre-baking of the mica with a heat gun set to 530 C. The setup looks good, with nice insulation around the tube, and 4 hours seems like it should do the job.

I mentioned the binder pre-baking only to eliminate it as a possible source of the black goo, and suggested hydrogen reduction as another possible explanation. The pre-baking is an oxidation process and would result in a different set of decomposition products.

I contacted a supplier of sheet mica (AXIM) to ask about hydrogen reactivity. They had no info about it, so the search goes on.
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+2 #24 Sanjeev 2013-01-04 10:22
@Chuck,
Yes, its very likely that someone will object that the H2 is reacting with mica or impurities in glass or leaked air or with any of the dozen things that are around the wire.

The answer is that if chemical reactions are taking place in the run with Celani wire, they are also happening during calibration run with inactive wire. So the chemical component of excess heat will be same in both cases and will cancel out, because P_xs is a difference.

The chemical reactions, if any, will most likely use up the fuel in a few minutes. After many days of run, there will be hardly anything left to burn. In fact, since the final run comes after calibration, it can not produce more chemical-heat than the calibration run.

But it is necessary to clean it lest it possibly poisons the lenr effect.
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0 #23 Chuck 2013-01-04 09:56
#21, AlanG, see my #4 on this thread.

Bottom line to me seems to be that if you have anything more than the wire and a bunch of glass or sheet mica in that tube when you heat it, your measurements will be called into question.

I believe that this thing really has to be made of ueber-clean and non-reacting materials to get some real data.

...and that's what I've been trying to get at in my postings.
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0 #22 Robert Greenyer 2013-01-04 04:37
@AlanG

Thankyou for your investigation
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+1 #21 AlanG 2013-01-03 19:16
Further info on mica binder resins. There's a good article at
grimminger-online.net/Polyurethane/Dateien/Fundamentals/Silicones%20Chem%20Tech%20Chp6-end.PDF

It recommends pre-baking at 400 C to fully sinter the binder resin into stable pyrogenic silicone
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0 #20 AlanG 2013-01-03 17:52
@Ryan Hunt
"Any other suggestions?"

Maybe the mica binder is reacting with hydrogen.

From sz-apr.com/en/youji.asp?id=45


Those dangling OH ends look vulnerable, though the CH3-Si bonds are much stronger, according to
gelest.com/.../10BondDiss.pdf.
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